****Please forgive any and all transcription errors as this was transcribed by Otter.ai.****

Michelle Joyce 0:00

Hi, I'm Michelle Joyce, and you're listening to A Shark's Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)

Kenneth Kinney 0:20

Welcome back and thank you for joining A Shark's Perspective. I am Kenneth Kinney, but friends call me Shark. I am a keynote speaker, a strategist, a shark diver, host of this show, and your Chief Shark Officer.

Kenneth Kinney 0:33

Today we're talking about speaking, professional speaking that is, and what it takes to not only be a good speaker, but one that utilizes a well known and respected speaker agent, someone who helps sell you as a speaker, promote you handle contracts, be that backend brand, if you will, for clients that hire you as an IT speaker and know that you're someone they can trust. So much of the speaking business is about relationships. It's not just the speech on stage or your performance. Getting to that next level requires the client to work with someone or finish a shoe. But if you're lucky, it's with a speaker agent like today's guest who helps you get to that next level with your brand. In short, why should a speaker work with an agent?

Kenneth Kinney 1:13

Michelle Joyce is the founder of an exclusive speaker management company, Michelle Joyce Speakers, and is recognized by Forbes as a Speaker Industry Expert with more than 25 years of speaker management experience representing top keynote speakers in a variety of industries.

Kenneth Kinney 1:28

And on this episode, we will discuss working as a speaker agent, the state of the state in the speaking business and working with bureaus, developing and maintaining your personal brand, the long game in the relationship business, what makes a speaker an IT speaker, why some speakers don't work with agents, why some speakers succeed, and others do not, servicing clients extremely well, fishing and shark stories on the Carolina coast, home renovation shows, rollercoasters and NASCAR, Hilton Head, and a lot lot more.

Kenneth Kinney 1:57

So let's tune into a top speaker Agent with the top speaker Shark on this episode of A Shark's Perspective.

[music]

Kenneth Kinney 2:08

Michelle, welcome to A Shark's Perspective. If you would tell us a little bit about your background and your career to date.

Michelle Joyce 2:13

Oh, thanks so much for having me. This month actually marks my 25th year in the professional speaking world. So my whole life is booking keynote speakers for the corporate meetings and events space. I have had my own agency for eight and a half years now prior to that, I worked with the great Jeffrey Gitomer, who's arguably the best sales trainer in the world. I came to Jeffrey right out of college. So it was fun to not only learn the speaking business, but also learn sales and customer service from the greatest.

Kenneth Kinney 2:49

And if you're, what, 27 years old?

Michelle Joyce 2:52

28. You're very kind.

Kenneth Kinney 2:55

Well, what made you want to do this? Did you ever want to speak?

Michelle Joyce 3:00

You know, I have always loved speaking I'm okay at it. Like I'm one of those people that doesn't really get nervous. I gave a speech in junior high and didn't get nervous and thought, why do people why are people afraid of this. And it's a funny story. A lot of my industry colleagues joke with me that I am the only person they know who actually uses their college degree in this job. But I took a public speaking class my freshman year in college, I went to BGSU in Ohio Go Falcons. And I fell in love with it. And I said I don't I don't really know what I want to do with this. But I love the idea of influencing people with your words and persuading people and inspiring people and motivating and I just knew that it was something I was cut out to do. And so I also minored in marketing, and I moved to Charlotte, North Carolina right out of college. And that's when I landed with Jeffrey and so I literally have been working, you know what I what I wanted to do right out of college using my degree and things have evolved from there.

Kenneth Kinney 4:06

Explain what your role is, to our audience.

Michelle Joyce 4:10

Sure. So I own an exclusive speaker Management Agency. I currently rep 10 keynote speakers, which means I am their full time sales agent, whether you call me an agent or a director of events, I handle all of the bookings for all of the 10 people on my roster, their leads come to me I'm generating leads for them. I'm closing all of the deals, managing all of the contracts and the invoicing.

Kenneth Kinney 4:37

And you maintain that stable if you will. 60 to 80% of the time is pretty consistent, right?

Michelle Joyce 4:44

Yeah, I would say over the past couple of years that stayed real consistent. Yeah, yeah, we have very little turnover.

Kenneth Kinney 4:50

Well, let's talk a little bit about the state of the state. I mean, other than everyone being vaccinated and telling us way too much on social references needed in the keynote What has changed post pandemic when it comes to booking speakers?

Michelle Joyce 5:04

Yeah, well, the first thing I'll say is, live events are back like in person events are back. We rarely book virtual events anymore. Now, I should say that my world really are those corporate. What do you say?

Kenneth Kinney 5:19

I said, thank the Lord. I know, right?

Michelle Joyce 5:21

It's like so and people are even booking out, like, I have an event booked in 2025. So for me, it's like the good old days are back. But for me, what changed is it sped up the learning curve of virtual learning for clients, right, we all knew it was coming anyway. But now that people were forced into it, they're a little bit more comfortable with it. So for us, we've had additional revenue streams, because now I'm able to book additional supplemental ongoing products, right, so someone brings in my keynote speaker for their big annual meeting. And I can upsell quarterly touch points or a follow up webinar, because that was so foreign to them before they were forced on Zoom. And now it's like, oh, I don't have to fly my team all over the country, I can just log on virtually and get a quick hit. So the additional revenue stream has been definitely something that I never saw come in.

Kenneth Kinney 6:20

Well, and I didn't either i I'm doing a lot more videos post as part of it, that they are delivering some sort of content after it. I love doing that. It's not. That's been very helpful. So how is your role evolved with bureaus over the last few years versus direct bookings? Because with there being so many more speakers that have jumped into the market, they're now competing against your great group of 10?

Michelle Joyce 6:45

Sure, so I would say that speaker bureaus are my greatest partners in the industry. And a lot of times people think I own a bureau I don't I own a management agency. The kicker is we all work together, right. But my speaker, Bureau partners are my best partners, because they have lifelong agreements with big companies, that will always come back to them, right. So like company XYZ wants to hire one of my speakers, they go through the bureau, because the Bureau has maintained that relationship for years. And then the bureau is constantly pitching new speakers and new ideas as well. So bureaus, rather than coming to my speaker would come to me they know that I am the sales agent for all of those speakers. I think how that is evolved, which was, you know, originally your question is its relationship business, right, just like anything, everything's relationship business, but our industry, you know, times 10. So if my bureau partners know that I only work with great human beings and they're at the top of their game, then I've kind of already done that work for them, right, they know that if they're in my stable, that I've already put my stamp of approval on them, and they know that we are going to get them the information they need as quickly as possible, we're going to partner with them, we're going to be fully transparent, I'm gonna get spin back to them. It's just really maintaining those relationships. And over time those relationships grow and are nurtured into into new ones.

Kenneth Kinney 8:17

One of the things I know that when I first met you, I complimented you on the name that I knew you were building. And to that point, I see the trust that people bought in you, especially with your personality, you seem very humble and easy to deal with. You don't seem like a diva, you were, you haven't been anything but nice. And I think that comes to such a long way because somebody can eliminate and cut through a lot of the noise by knowing that your speakers have your stamp of approval. So what do you think it is the it factor that makes someone a successful speaker? Because I would obviously say that the 10 under your fold, if you will have that it?

Michelle Joyce 8:56

Yeah, thank you for that. I think there's a couple of things for me that makes someone it Speaker I think first and foremost, someone that's able to deliver new information in a fun and engaging way, right, like clients are looking for new information they can take back to their job immediately after they hear it and put it into action. And when when you work with an expert, you know in that field and they can deliver something that creates a new idea or creates a new avenue for someone then that's really relevant. You know, it's you're not listening to the same thing over and over again. It's it's really that new, that new thing, right and it's also what makes them uniquely qualified to do that. I have a lot of people on my roster who are world class experts in their area that's like they own it right there global gurus, their hall of fame speakers, their New York Times bestselling authors. They have put in the years and years of experience and continue to do so that makes them super qualified to talk on that subject. I think the other thing that makes someone an IT speaker is how awesome they are to work with, right? Because you can be the smartest person in the world and your information might be fantastic. But if you're difficult, if you you know, if I don't trust you, if you show up late if you're mean to someone on site like right like that all of those things, it's not worth it. You said earlier, there's a lot of speakers in this business there are, if you don't, you don't have the luxury of not being the greatest you can possibly be because clients will just move on to the other person.

Kenneth Kinney 10:34

On the other hand, though, there are a lot of great speakers out there. But a lot of them don't make it or maybe they don't. They don't get to that place where you sort of think of them that it factor. What do you think, is the reason why a lot of even great speakers don't make it?

Michelle Joyce 10:48

Yeah, that's such a great question. It has been my experience, that the great ones who don't make it, don't understand that it's a long game. There is a lot of hard work and time and effort and blood, sweat and tears, you know, that go into building a very successful speaking business? I think in order to make it in today's world, you have to understand that it takes time, there is no quick way there is no secret, there is no one thing that you have to be doing, you have to be doing all the things all the time, you have to be reinventing your content. You know, like, what's what's hot in the marketplace, right? Now, what do people want, you have to have an ear to the ground on supply and demand for corporate meetings. And you have to be able to do that you have to be able to hustle still and nurture, nurture relationships. I've seen some people arrive, and then sit back and quit doing the work. And those people fizzle out as well. It is it is hard work all the time. And I think a lot of new speakers, this is what's important for them to know, they see the big shiny hotels and the 5000 person conference room. But they don't understand the hard work that maybe it took to get there. Right. They think wow, I you know, this person is making five figures to speak for 45 minutes on a stage and I want to do that. But you know, that person spent a heck of a lot of time away from their family putting in the hours to get where they are.

Kenneth Kinney 12:21

Agreed. So I was thinking about a couple of people that you represent. And two of them in particular that I know fairly well are very close friends with other speakers, comparable to them, excellent speakers, and the others don't use an agent. And most speakers will never have an agent. I'm not asking you to justify your role in any way or any because there's such a ridiculous value in having someone like you do the work you do. But why do you think that is that a lot of speakers never work with an agent?

Michelle Joyce 12:54

Well, I think you have to find what works for you and your business. And that's the first thing that I tell someone who's looking for an agent, you know, I always say, Okay, what does an agent mean to you? What does that look like? Some people are way better suited to have an on site staff person, right. And that's what I did forget them or for 17 years, I there's so much value in that if that works better for your business model. Some people prefer only to work with Speaker bureaus, right. They don't, they don't want to do a lot of the outbound marketing or the qualification, they want to only work with Speaker bureaus. And so they build an entire business positioning themselves to Speaker bureaus. I think for Speaker management agencies like mine, and my peers that do the same kind of thing. What's cool is, you know, they're a family, I have this roster of people that that support each other, which, you know, I was just telling someone the other day, that was a byproduct I never saw common, right. They're like these amazing people who have all become friends. And they help and support each other. And it's like one of my proudest things, but there's a lot of benefit to being on a roster of like minded people, even if, even if there are different topics because there's cross promotion and cross selling. And I think, you know, my speakers, one of the things that that they looked for coming on my roster was someone who had so much sales experience within the industry. You my speakers don't have time to be closing deals, they got to be out on the road or writing their next book or getting to their next event. So they need someone they can trust to nurture those leads and close those deals and follow up again for future business and that's what my company does.

Kenneth Kinney 14:35

Out of curiosity, how did you get to 10 people being sort of your sweet spot because there are a lot of people that do this and they want to continue to expand and expand and expand and then it it gets so watered down I'm sure from from a management perspective as well. But I mean, I see you, especially on LinkedIn, post stuff about your people all the day if you had double this people I don't know that you You would obviously spend anywhere near the amount of time or you get caught in the rat race of just posting and that becomes your full time jobs. But how did you sort of get to that spot of 10?

Michelle Joyce 15:10

Yeah, that's exactly it, I realized that, in order for me to continue the level of service to the clients and the speakers, this is the magic number for me with who's on the roster right now. And it's hard, right, because I have speakers reach out to me on a regular basis, and they're amazing. And I would love to work with them. But since I started my business, one of the best things that I've done is know when to say no, you know, I'm very clear about what's working and what's not. And my job is to keep kicking the ball down the field to make sure that everybody wins. And I have to be very careful of my time, and where that spent. So right now, it's a great thing. We are we are cooking, but I'm I'm at my max right now, I don't have the desire to expand that and

Kenneth Kinney 16:03

two kids will. Yeah. And so what is what's the general criteria for a speaker agent? As in what kind of speakers do you represent? And how do you come to that?

Michelle Joyce 16:16

Yeah, well, you know what, there are a ton of different agents and management companies. So when you're looking for one, you have to figure out what works best for you. There are some that specialize in business development with newer speakers or lower fee speakers who need the reps. And there are some like myself, who really focus on closing those deals and nurturing leads for future business. Because a lot of my speakers, they have incoming leads, right they, they are of a certain criteria, and have a certain level where they have a lot of inbound already. So my job is to sort of fill in the rest. But when you're looking for an agent, it has to be a fit, right? Like we've we've, we're all family, my speakers are my family. And that has to be a really good fit, I have learned that if it's not a fit, if expectations are not set very clearly upfront, or there's personality conflicts or, you know, differences of opinions, it's not going to work, it's not going to be a great experience.

Kenneth Kinney 17:15

It's an eclectic looking family, you've got though when I look at the people.

Michelle Joyce 17:20

They're my ducks. They're all my my little ducks.

Kenneth Kinney 17:22

Well, you know, Jay Baer, we didn't start out at a five figure plus fee. How does someone go about not necessarily him, but any of them really go from, say, a five to $15,000, speaker to a $20,000 plus speaker and then being represented by an agent, I think a lot of people are to your point earlier, they don't know that they need to put in the reps and make the outbound phone calls and make them feel uncomfortable and send a bazillion emails that never get answered. But at the same time, people want to know, is there light at the end of the tunnel? So how does someone go from hitting one mark to getting to that next mark? At least in your eyes?

Michelle Joyce 18:01

Yeah, that's a great question. And Jay is such a great example of that speaker that reinvents all the time, right, he is constantly producing new content and, and listening to what's out there. And what do people want and recognizing trends and needs. So he's one of the hardest working individuals I've ever met. And I think, you know, he's a great example for that. I think if you're a new speaker, and you're, you want to get up into those higher fees, or you want more business, sometimes it's not just about the fee increase. Sometimes it's like, I just want more bookings. There's an old adage in the business that says speak more, to speak more. And so being visible, you know, when you're just starting out where you do have a little bit of a smaller fee, just worry about the reps just worry about showcasing your talents in front of audiences who can say yes to you, again and again, go speak at luncheons, go speak at lunch and learns, go speak at Industry Association events, just go do the reps. And I often tell people, you know, even though my speakers are setting certain criteria, they're still putting out content on a regular basis. They're still blogging and active on their social and showing up at Industry Association events, like they're very current on what's going on out there. There's a lot of hustle in this business, you have to be willing to work really hard, and continue to do so until you're done. Right. Like that's, I think there's a misnomer that you know that it gets easy. I think the really good ones are constantly working.

Kenneth Kinney 19:34

Why do you think there are so few great speaker agents? I know it's a blend because it's you. It's your support team internally, it's the speakers you have. I would say that you could find other pockets of that but I hear your name often. And I don't hear a lot of other people often that doesn't mean that maybe my hearing is just clogged. But I have heard and I've heard other people references Well, that hold what you're doing at a very high standard. And that name now is obviously it's worth a lot. So I pose a obvious fluff question. Why do you think there are so few great speaker agents?

Michelle Joyce 20:11

First of all, thank you for that very kind. I think people don't know the job exists, honestly. Because you know, I live in this world, I've been living in this world for 25 years. But when I meet someone at a cocktail party, and they say, What do you do? They're so blown away, that this is what I do for a living. I mean, like, literally have the coolest job ever. And I just gave a speech to a whole bunch of juniors and seniors in high school. And it was like a career day. And I was like, you guys, I have the coolest job ever. Right? Like, I get to put people on stages that inspire audiences all around the world. Like, to me there's nothing better. And I own my own company. There's nothing better, right? Like, I have all the things. But people are blown away that that's an actual job. I think people just don't know it exists. I think there's a huge demand. If anyone was interested in selling speakers or managing speakers, I think there's a huge demand for it. I also think it takes a very specific personality, right? Like, I am very good at managing a lot of things at the same time. And that's overwhelming for a lot of my friends, right? Like, I'm just wired differently than a lot of people I know. It's a very demanding position. And so I think, you know, I think all the things have to live Yeah, align, you have to know it exists, you have to plug into this world. But there's there's burnout, right? I know, a lot of people who gave it a try. And they were like, Whoa, this is so not for me. And I get it.

Kenneth Kinney 21:42

Well, I think that's probably part of the reason why I was thinking about the humility as a compliment is that it doesn't ever seem that you're trying to one up your spears, and I've never heard of you trying to sell anything. And in today's current world that we live in, there's a lot of people who do that, who would probably try to sell a course, to the people they represent. You know, and, and thank goodness, you don't have an online course or any, any of those kinds of silly offerings that we would see if this was replicated by looking at 50 people we knew did this 25 of them would try to sell to the speakers they represent. And that's everybody's got to make $1. But if you want to do it, well, don't try to sell them something. But anyway, all right, well, you're in the Carolinas where I've gone diving many times. A lot of shipwrecks out there, which I love and a lot of diverse shark populations. You go to Hilton Head a lot. So I ask everyone who appears on the show, what is your favorite kind of shark and why?

Kenneth Kinney 22:41

Ahhhh

Kenneth Kinney 22:42

Any shark stories at all.

Michelle Joyce 22:43

I have a great sharp story. Actually, I don't know that I have a favorite shark because you know, I really don't want to encounter them like you want to encounter them. But let me say it was three years ago. Um, well first of all link back up and say when my family my husband and my two children, we go to Hilton Head every summer and we always charter a boat to go out fishing. And we always use the same Captain Thomas is amazing. And three years ago, my son caught at that time the state record shark. So it was we were not fishing for shark. But sometimes it happens. And he pulled that thing up and it was bigger than him. So we have this fantastic picture of my husband who is six five big guy holding the shark up next to my son who's pointing it because it was on my son's line. And the guy measured it and he was like as of today, dude, that's like the that's the state record. And it's just a really fun story for my son to be able to tell. I'll send you the picture after but it's it's a it's a super fun story.

Kenneth Kinney 23:49

Hopefully you throw it back.

Michelle Joyce 23:51

We Oh yeah, we throw it back. We throw everything back. It's all catch and release. But yeah.

Kenneth Kinney 23:56

All right. Well, Michelle says special time of the show. Are you ready for the five most interesting and important questions that you're gonna be asked today?

Michelle Joyce 24:02

I hope so.

Kenneth Kinney 24:04

Alright, here we go. Number one, okay. You just went through a home renovation of sorts. So I'm gonna going to assume that when I talk about TV renovation shows on HGTV, you'll know who I'm talking about? Would you rather watch fixer upper or Flip or Flop? Fixer Upper? Okay. You knew what they were? I've lost the I've lost the remote control battle many times. So I knew that. You know, though, sorry. Number two, in the speaking market associations or private slash corporate?

Michelle Joyce 24:34

Can I say both?

Kenneth Kinney 24:36

Nope.

Michelle Joyce 24:36

Ahhhh

Kenneth Kinney 24:37

Gotta pick your favorite child. That's another question coming later. Just kidding.

Michelle Joyce 24:40

Oh, my God, that's so hard. You know what I would say the majority of our work are with private clients. And so I'm gonna say that just because that's the majority of what we do. We do associations but

Kenneth Kinney 24:53

Well the one thing I will say that I love most about private is I don't have to post stuff about myself on social Your private stuff. But that's just me. All right, number three, you're in the Charlotte area. So let's talk about fun things to do. Fun scary things, which do you think is more dangerous riding a roller coaster at Kara wins, which made the world news or driving a NASCAR race car on the track.

Michelle Joyce 25:20

Ahhhh, I'm gonna go with roller coaster. Because if you were to drive a NASCAR car on the track, there's like a whole bunch of companies that do that as tours and they're pretty controlled. They're pretty controlled. I think the roller coaster is out of our control.

Kenneth Kinney 25:37

Yeah, that beam with a crack in it, it was so I think video like 5000 times terrifying. Alright, so number four things to do at Hilton Head, which do you like more going into the water on a boat or just sitting at the beach?

Michelle Joyce 25:53

just sitting at the beach, I could sit on the beach and stare at that horizon for the rest of my life.

Kenneth Kinney 26:00

I'm just gonna get out of the way so you can hear my virtual background.

Michelle Joyce 26:04

And my family knows, right that's my I will take my chair down to the water and I will just sit there and look out and it's really the only alone time I ever get in my whole life.

Kenneth Kinney 26:14

A little SPF 30 and you're good to go for.

Kenneth Kinney 26:17

Yeah

Kenneth Kinney 26:17

Alright, number five. And the most important question that you're going to be asked today is biscuits or cornbread?

Michelle Joyce 26:22

biscuits. 100%.

Michelle Joyce 26:25

Why so?

Michelle Joyce 26:25

With sausage gravy on top.

Kenneth Kinney 26:27

I just had it yesterday. So I highly agree. At Big Bad Breakfast, which is a favorite Northwest Florida. So alright, so Michelle, where can people find out more about you about your agency and a lot more?

Michelle Joyce 26:41

No, thanks. My website is simply my name, Michelle joyce.com. And all of the information about us and what we do and all of our speakers are right there.

Kenneth Kinney 26:50

Perfect. Michelle, thank you again for being with us today on A Shark's Perspective.

Michelle Joyce 26:55

Thank you for having me. This was fun.

[music]

Kenneth Kinney 27:02

So there was my conversation with Michelle Joyce, the founder of an exclusive speaker management company, Michelle Joyce Speakers, and she's recognized by Forbes as a Speaker Industry Expert with more than 25 years of speaker management experience representing top keynote speakers in a variety of industries. Let's take a look at three key takeaways from our conversation with her.

Kenneth Kinney 27:23

First, one of my favorite points is when she talks about the value of relationships in professional speaking, it's a long game. And from someone who works as a speaker, I can tell you that what has benefited me the most other than when I spoke on stage, it's the relationships that I've built with clients, they've evolved over time and they get stronger. And quite often those have led to second, third and fourth bookings, as well as referrals and testimonials and so on. Develop your website, your speaker reels post on social media as often as you want and more. But invest truly invest the most in your business. In the relationships with those people. Many will just call clients, but others advocates and hopefully many more, you'll call friends.

Kenneth Kinney 28:05

Second, what makes someone an IT speaker in her eyes? A lot of it is a new idea or a new path or new explanation, if you will, that explain something in a new way. And she importantly added another ID factor being that you're easy and great to work with because she reminded us it or not, there are plenty of choices out there.

Kenneth Kinney 28:24

Third, what's your magic number? We all want more I talk all the time about customer acquisition. We all want more and more and more. We want more gigs, more clients and more. But as she reminds us with her magic number of 10 speakers in her stable, it's because that's how many she can manage extremely well. She can manage more, but she knows that for her business and for the benefit of theirs. She needs to manage and perform for them extremely well. You want to build a brand. It's not a bad idea to be known as the one who performs not well, but extremely well.

Kenneth Kinney 28:57

Got a question, send me an email to Kenneth at a shark's perspective.com.

Kenneth Kinney 29:02

Thank you again for the privilege of your time and I'm so thankful to everyone who listens.

Kenneth Kinney 29:06

Professionally speaking of course, I hope that you have an amazing day. Please join us on the next episode of A Shark's Perspective.

(Music - shark theme)